Slay Your Inner Critic & Live the Life You Want

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November 11, 2021 / Mom & … Podcast Episode 44 / Guest: Katherine Wintsch of Slay Like a Mother

Show Summary

Early in this episode, Katherine Wintsch says that she had the trappings of success on the outside, but felt hollow inside. If you, like we did, felt that punch directly in your gut, give this episode a listen.

We talk about the inner critic many of us deal with, and discuss ways to manage that often nasty voice. We also dig into figuring out what really matters to us, as individuals, and then using that knowledge to find focus in our lives. Katherine had us on the edge of our seats, leaning toward that Zoom window, because she has battled her dragon voice and shares what she learned with honesty and vulnerability.

More About Katherine Wintsch:

Katherine dedicates her life to making the lives of mothers easier. In her role as founder and CEO of The Mom Complex, she helps the largest companies in the world such as Walmart, Johnson & Johnson and Airbnb better understand and support their mom customers and employees.

And in her latest venture, Katherine combines 10+ years of groundbreaking research on motherhood with her own personal journey in her popular book SLAY LIKE A MOTHER

Parade magazine recently named SLAY LIKE A MOTHER one of the “top 10 life-changing self-help books of the year” and Katherine’s research has been featured by The Today Show, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and Fast Company.

Katherine is a recipient of the “Working Mother of the Year” award by the Advertising Women of New York, the “Outstanding Woman” award from the YWCA and most recently a “Woman of the Decade” award from the Women’s Economic Forum in India.

Topics From This Episode (Complete transcript is available below… scroll to the bottom!)

  • Self-doubt
  • Inner critic (or inner mean girl, or inner dragon)
  • Strategies for overcoming your inner critic and self-doubt
  • Tips for defining who you are
  • How to take time for yourself without the guilt

Resources and Links From This Episode 

Look, Listen, Learn

Susanne:

Katherine:

Missy:

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Musical Notes

Our delightfully happy intro and outro theme music, “We Will Get Through This” is performed by Young Presidents, and used under license from Shutterstock.

 

Transcript* From This Episode

*Please note that this transcript is automatically generated through our editing software. Expect odd errors and misunderstood words. In fact, if you find a really funny one, send it to us, and we may feature it – and you – on our socials!

[00:00:00] Susanne: Welcome to the mom and dot.dot podcast. I’m Susanne Kerns. I’m a mom and that.dot writer, LGBTQ advocate. And this week a Trello and Evernote business tool user. Thanks to Cara Harvey. Who’s the purpose-driven mom. You can go back to episode 37, if you want some inspiration.

[00:00:43] Missy: Awesome. And I’m Missy Stevens mom and dot.dot writer, foster care advocate. And today birthday weekend planner for my husband, who always gets overlooked in the Halloween hubbub.

[00:00:54] Susanne: Oh fun.

[00:00:55] Missy: not overlook his birthday this year.

[00:00:58] Susanne: Yay.

[00:00:59] Missy: And we are so happy today to have Katherine Wintsch of Slay Like a Mother with us, Katherine dedicates her life to making the lives of mothers easier.

So good in her role as founder and CEO of the mom complex, she helps the largest companies in the world, such as Walmart Johnson and Johnson and Airbnb better understand and support their mom, customers, and employees in her latest venture. Katherine combines 10 plus years of groundbreaking research on motherhood with her own personal journey in her popular book, slay like a mother Susanne is holding it up for our YouTube viewers.

Parade magazine recently named slay like a mother, one of the top 10 life-changing self-help books of the year. And Katherine’s research has been featured by the today show the New York times the wall street journal and fast company. She is a recipient of the working mother of the year award by the advertising women of New York and the , outstanding woman award from the YWCA. And most recently woman of the decade award from the women’s economic forum in India.

So welcome, Catherine. We’re so happy. You’re here today.

[00:02:03] Susanne: Welcome.

Um,

[00:02:05] Katherine: I am grateful to have the opportunity to talk about this stuff.

[00:02:10] Susanne: And now, before we dive in, we’ve gone through your bio, but can you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and the road that led you to all the wonderful things that you’re doing?

[00:02:19] Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I, um, grew up in a very loving, supportive household, but didn’t always feel that love inside. And so I would say that my upbringing, that I spent 20 years of my life from age 15 to 35, with what I referred to as a dragon of self doubt deep inside my soul, that, , no matter what I achieved, what I accomplished, I never felt good enough thin enough.

Nice enough patient enough, accomplished enough, whatever enough. And, um, so I had the trappings of success on the outside, but I. Fairly hollow on the inside, I will say. , but I went to lots of therapy. I’m a huge advocate of therapy and, um, drank lots of red wine, watched lots of Oprah episodes, read lots of self help books.

And I finally learned to love myself from the inside out and not rely on it, um, you know, from other people. So that was, , a pretty massive shift to in my life. I’m 44. Now that happened at 35 AM much, much, much happier now.

[00:03:26] Susanne: Oh, that’s

[00:03:27] Missy: Amazing.

[00:03:28] Susanne: Thank goodness for Oprah.

[00:03:30] Katherine: yeah,

Breech my

[00:03:33] Missy: I mean, I think between Oprah and some of her regular guests, um, who’s the life coach. My brain has left the

[00:03:41] Katherine: um, Martha Beck

[00:03:43] Missy: Martha Beck. Yes. Like I think they changed a lot of women’s lives. So

[00:03:49] Katherine: No doubt. I was just quoting, um, another one to Oprah’s gurus is Iyanla Vanzant, and she had this quote, I went to one Oprah’s conferences and yeah, Iyanla was presenting. And those quotes she put on the screen said that the life you want is just on the other side of the labor pains, it will take to birth it.

And it was so beautiful and it was the first time that it really registered with me that I could change my life. I could live a different life, but I would have to go through some pain and I would have to go through some hard work and I would have to have some hard conversations with myself, with other people.

And yeah, and I used to watch Oprah’s episodes later. I for the kids that gone to bed and my husband would come downstairs and I would just be crying

[00:04:34] Susanne: Yes,

[00:04:35] Katherine: like, oh my God, what’s happening in here? I’m going back upstairs. But I was like, oh, it’s okay.

[00:04:44] Missy: I’m just healing over here.

[00:04:46] Katherine: I’m feeling is good. It’s good. They’re good tears.

[00:04:48] Susanne: All the husbands are like, why do you do this to yourself?

[00:04:52] Missy: It’s a very overwhelming to the husbands for sure.

[00:04:57] Susanne: I love it.

[00:04:58] Missy: Uh, well, you’ve already touched on this a little bit, but talking about this mean dragon, this inner voice who is so nasty and, your research actually says that nine out of 10 moms that’s huge live with frequent or constant self-doubt and they have a negative inner voice that they describe as the meanest mean, girl.

how do we start getting a hold of that and separating that mean girl voice from the truth and how to ignore her. If not completely shut her up.

[00:05:28] Katherine: Yeah. Well, the first thing you have to do is you have to hear the voice. And so many of us are just walking through life, yelling at ourselves, annihilating ourselves, you know, you’re fat, you’re ugly, it’s a miracle people like you. I mean, all of this rhetoric that runs through our minds and we don’t even know it’s happening.

And so, you know, I always recommend, take out a post-it note of a pen. And when you hear that negative voice, say something, just write it down. And, , my therapist had me do that, , many years ago and she asked me to write down the last terrible thing that I said to myself. And I thought it took me two seconds and I wrote down, you are a poor excuse for a strong woman.

[00:06:09] Missy: Ah,

[00:06:09] Katherine: And there was something really magical about seeing that statement in my own handwriting. So the first step is you have to hear it. And the second step is it has to get outside of the inside of your body. Meaning write it on a piece of paper is the first step. Then you can say it out loud, like, guess what I said to myself, You have to own this voice because if you just ignore it or you’re blind to it, of course you’ll never be able to, you know, to help it go away.

And so awareness is job number one. And then once you start to hear it and you’re making these notes, eventually it is a practice, but you can basically teach it some manners. And I’ll give you a, a quick, a quick example. So, um, I like to ride the Peloton bike and back when one traveled, I was at a hotel for a business meeting.

They had a Peloton bike the, hotel gym. So I’m in the gym and I do my workout on the bike. And at the end I’m stretching and my hands are on the top of my backside. And I grabbed what feels like two handfuls of cellulite and the negative voice in my head says, oh my gosh, what does that look like?

And you know, I’m looking around, can everybody see my cellulite? Can they see it? And so, first of all, I have. I heard the voice say,

[00:07:27] Missy: Mm Hmm.

[00:07:28] Katherine: like? And I said, I’m going to teach this voice some manners. And so I took a deep breath and I said, what this looks like is that I got my ass out of bed put it on a bike.

That’s what this looks like. And so you really can have the last word. You can teach it some manners, but again, it requires hearing it in the first place and admitted it.

[00:07:53] Missy: Oh, so you have on your website and we’ll, we’ll put it in our show notes, a video it’s like a three-minute video of women kind of going through this exercise and then sharing with another woman, what their mean voice told them to write down. And I told Susanne I cried while watching it. It was so moving.

And so I don’t want to watch it now because I don’t want to cry during our interview, but I highly recommend that people go find it and we will link to it because it’s really powerful. And then hearing you talk about it in terms of. teaching it. Manners is that’s huge. Huge,

[00:08:32] Katherine: And it was really powerful for those women. You know, they, these women, as your listeners will see when they watch it. They didn’t know what they were doing. They showed up, it was blind. And we asked them to impromptu, write down the last terrible thing you said to yourself, and now you have to read it to a stranger.

And, , there were a lot of men that were working on the set that day. The director was a woman, but a lot of. Were there. And, they knew the premise of it. And one of the men said to me, you know, Catherine, how do you know that these women that you don’t even know are going to have terrible things to say about themselves?

What if they show up? And they’re like, I’m beautiful. And you know, and I was like, no,

[00:09:10] Missy: Silly, silly, man.

[00:09:12] Katherine: aren’t you going to waste a lot of money of all these ladies just show up. And they just love themselves. And I was like, oh, that’s not you. I have no concern that that is going to be the case, but it was really powerful for those women to own it and to say it out loud.

And, um, yeah, it’s a really moving moment.

[00:09:29] Missy: oh

[00:09:30] Susanne: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And so, okay. So I’m, I’m kind of in nuts and bolts kind of person. So you write it down, like, is this something that you collect to see where you’ve grown from or do you like light them on fire and a ceremonial airing of the grievances? , like what is the, what, how do you take that then the next day?

And the next day after that?

[00:09:52] Katherine: Yeah. I mean, me, I think it depends on the individual, but for me, you know, I have a journal and I’m not a big journaler. I mean, you know, it’s not a lot of prose. It’s not that long, but I would just, you know, write. , every once in a while, just the statement on a page and other day, just the statement on a page and really let it sit in this like stark environment, you know, by itself.

And I kind of did want it, , over time and I can look back on my journals and I can say, oh yeah, that’s when I was trying to get that promotion at work. And I thought I sucked or that’s when I didn’t know how to be the mother to a teenager. And I was, you know, telling myself that I suck. It’s not necessarily a bad thing.

It can be great for me now to go back and look and see how far I’ve come. And I don’t treat myself that way anymore. So I think it’s nice to have it, or, , it doesn’t have to be a journal, not everybody’s into that. You could use like the notes app in your phone, you know, just like, get it out quickly, get it down quickly.

, and I would keep it in some format that you can go back to it. Um, and again, realize how far you’ve come when you start to make progress. And you don’t say that crap to yourself anymore.

[00:10:58] Susanne: Yeah, I love that. Oh, well, you know, knowing that women are saying these things to themselves day in and day out and this chronic self-doubt. I think can almost train you not to trust yourself and your own inner voices and your gut instincts. And you start to really question that. And so we’d love to hear how you’ve helped women reconnect with that inner truth to really understand our core values and determine priorities.

And I’ve just got to read this quote from your book. Cause , I was telling Missy I seriously could just highlight the whole book. Um, but I just, I, in particular, I think this sums up so much, but as mothers, we often don’t understand ourselves well enough to know what we should be loving and protecting beyond our children or families in its simplest form my path to freedom from self doubt, boiled down to knowing myself.

Loving myself and protecting myself. The problem is that too many of us have been skipping the first step. So this idea of knowing ourself and knowing that the person that we think is ourself is really the self. We think it is because of this ongoing self doubt that that mean voice in our head can have over time.

So just would love to hear how that’s played out for you and people that you work with.

[00:12:17] Katherine: Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. You know, in school we studied math and science and the arts and the weather, and we study everything. We don’t study ourselves. We know nothing about ourselves at all. You know, I see mothers all the time. They know everything like you were just saying, their kids like to eat.

And then it’s like, well, what do you want to eat? And they’re like, what? You know, like, I don’t know. And, um, I remember people used to ask me, like, what do you do for fun? And I was like, what? Like fun. You know, I am either working my ass off drinking or sleeping. I mean, you know, it was just, there was other, like, I just couldn’t imagine like fun. So I will say self-help books, I think are a wonderful avenue into learning about yourself. Certainly Slay like a mother, you know, you make it through my book and you’re going to learn a lot about yourself and be forced to write down these exercises and answer these really hard questions. , and I’ll give you an example from, you know, if you’re not ready to jump into a whole book, Martha Beck, who we were just mentioning who was Oprah’s life coach.

One of the books that changed my life that I read from her is called finding your own north star. And so this is an exercise that Martha shares that you can just do today. And, you know, you don’t even have to read a book and that is you take a piece of paper and you draw a line down the center. And on the left-hand side of the page, you make a list of all the activities in your life that really drain you.

That just kind of zap your soul. They make you really, you know, email is on the left-hand side of my page. I hate emails. I hate reading them. I hate writing them. They wave me down, you know, not fun for me. And then on the right-hand side of the page, what activities in your life fill you with joy and, um, and be really specific, not just spending time with my children or, you know, just be really specific is when I play tennis, it’s when I play a puzzle with my son, , or it can be work-related, it doesn’t have to be, but that sheer act of like what depletes you and what energizes you is.

Most of the women that I’ve worked with the first time they’ve ever contemplated that. And then the way to make it really actionable. If you want to start protecting yourself,, after you’ve learned about yourself, as you take those activities on the right and you put them on your calendar, not all of them.

Pick the top three and put them on your calendar as reoccurring meetings. So for example, if you love yoga and you feel very centered when you do yoga, but you never make time to do it, then go to your calendar and put every Tuesday morning for 30 minutes, from eight to eight 30, I’m going to do yoga.

But the critical step is that it is a reoccurring meeting. It’s every single Tuesday, so that the willpower that you need to do yoga because you know, it energizes you or fulfills you, you only have to muster up the willpower one time to say this is important to me. And, um, what I do on my calendar to this day, anything that’s in this vein that reenergizes me, refuels me, I color coded in dark purple on calendar and the reason that I do that is because if I show up to a Monday and I look at my week and a glance, and there’s not enough purple on my calendar, means there’s a problem.

[00:15:39] Missy: genius.

[00:15:40] Katherine: that I am falling back into my old ways of believing that other people deserve my time more than I do,

[00:15:49] Susanne: uh,

[00:15:49] Katherine: that’s what we believe when

[00:15:51] Missy: Yeah.

[00:15:51] Katherine: all of your time away to other people and you save nothing for yourself, it means fundamentally you believe they deserve your time more than you do.

And that is not a healthy live. And so the purple is a beautiful thing in my life.

[00:16:10] Missy: Yeah. I love that so much.

[00:16:13] Susanne: what an easy, yes,

[00:16:15] Missy: I really like purple as well. So I think I’m even going with purple. I think

this.

[00:16:19] Katherine: calendar you can, like, I don’t know what calendars everybody uses, but the one I use you can color code it and then you can name that category. And I just call it my mojo time. it’s really beautiful and there’s sometimes it’s in the morning, sometimes it’s in the evening, but again, it’s always reoccurring.

And found is that all the other crap in my life, the dentist appointments, they’re getting the dog groomed the, the meetings, the life that everything, still fits. It’s still fits. But show up there first because I book it out like it’s a year, you know, at a time. And, , so people think that, self care is, is selfish, but I guarantee you, I have so much more now to give away to other people because I’m taking care of my.

[00:17:08] Susanne: I love that, you know, I was just telling Missy that I was going through my old pictures and saw your Mom 2.0 presentation. It was 2018, I think. Um, and I just remember coming out of that session, like going, I need to follow everything she does. I think it’s also amazing, but it was the first time and I’ve heard this a few other places, but it was the first time I ever heard this theory about that self care time and the time for yourself as the big rocks versus the sand and how the big rocks are really the things that feed you and that, , bring you energy and that, you know, are really your time.

And the sand is all these little, have to do is to take in the car, the shop, taking the dog, you know, get his hair done. Um, the fact that if you put all your sand in your glass first, then the rocks

[00:17:57] Missy: It never getting those rocks then.

[00:17:58] Susanne: Whereas, if you put all the rocks in first, the sand then fill in the blanks and can fit in there and you can get everything done.

Well, not everything done, but

[00:18:08] Katherine: I think the other thing that you’ll learn, you know, as you do this more and more is that people don’t care about you as much as you think they care about you. And so, you know, somebody comes to you and says, you know, oh Missy, can you do this at 10 o’clock on Tuesday? And you go, no, but I can do it at 11, ?

And they go, okay, , or can you volunteer for this big event at school? And you say, no, I can’t. This month is like really hard for me. And I can’t do it. What do they say? They go, okay. And they go find somebody else. And so, you know, we live in so much fear of disappointing people of letting them down, but the more you say no, the more you step away from obligations that don’t fulfill you, you realize really quickly that the world keeps spinning and everything keeps going, and we’re not quite as important.

We like to think that we are,

[00:18:59] Missy: Hmm. I think that’s, you’re tying into something that I wanted to talk about a little bit. I really take in that external stuff. I don’t just have my own inner mean, girl. I assume that lots of other people are also mean girls or men or whatever the case may be. And I will take a message. Wrong, I think, or I’ll hear it incorrectly when someone says to me things like, oh, you’re still writing that book.

I hear it. As you’re never going to finish that book. You’re not capable of it, or, oh, you can’t, you can’t volunteer for that. And I hear it in the mean girl voice. It’s like, oh, you can’t, are you sure? And so do you have like tips or tricks to address that voice? You’ve talked about it a little bit already.

Just practicing saying no, but what else can we do

[00:19:49] Katherine: Well, um, I love your honesty there, and I will tell you in a very blunt way that, that you are the problem and those scenarios in that you’re never going to get rid of the external, like reverb. I mean, people, , when they want you to do something and if you say no, or they think you should write the book faster, like that’s never going to change.

You’re never going to be able to make people not say things like that to you. And. Die trying, you know? And so what you have to change is how you receive it. And , what you’re describing is like a filter that it goes through right in front of your face. Like, they’re just like, oh, you’re still working on that.

That’s a fact. They’re just saying, oh, you’re still working on that. And you hear, why are you so slow? And so, you know, once you are more confident about what you’re doing and less critical of how you’re doing it, or how long that you’re taking to do it, that filter will go away and you will just hear people say what they’re actually just saying.

And it won’t be, there’s like a translator in between, you know, the, what someone is saying and what you are hearing. And, I think we can take a cue from men here. Men don’t do this. I mean, I’m generalizing, but you know what I mean? Like

[00:21:07] Missy: My husband does not do this.

[00:21:08] Katherine: yeah, neither does mine. Somebody says you’re still writing a book.

Yup. I mean, he would just go, yes. And he would even think, and I’m writing a damn book. So.

[00:21:16] Missy: and it’s really good.

[00:21:18] Katherine: you wouldn’t care. I mean, and then I’ll say, did you hear the way that person’s said that? And he’s like, they didn’t say it like that, Katherine. And so, I mean this in the best way, like you are the problem and you are easier to fix because as you then trying to fix, everybody else are trying to, you know, wear this armor so that you don’t get hurt.

And to just throw a different metaphor in there in case it’s helpful. I think it’s like being a sailboat and not having a real.

[00:21:48] Missy: Uh,

[00:21:48] Katherine: So if you don’t have a rudder as a sailboat, right. The wind blows and you’re just like, whew. Oh, they said I’m slow. Oh, they said I’m fat. Oh. They said, you know, and every win that comes your way, you just get toppled over.

And that’s an exhausting way to live. I’ve lived that way for 20 years. But the more I grew to like myself to respect myself, to love myself, the rudder on my sailboat got really, really deep so that now the winds still blow just like they do in all of our lives, but it doesn’t make me nauseous. It does.

[00:22:25] Susanne: It’s like Dramamine.

[00:22:27] Katherine: Yeah. Like that is, , you know, very whiplash way to live. And so once you gain more confidence in what you’re doing and look at the good things of what you’re doing, I’m writing a book. I mean, how many people can say that that’s heroic. It’s amazing. So, yeah, it’ll, it’ll just be, um, and I’ll give you an example.

My son’s a big soccer player. My husband goes to more of his games than I do cause we kind of divide and conquer a lot. And I showed up to a game a few weeks ago and one of the dads was like, well, I haven’t seen you here in a while. You know? And normally I would have been like, he’s so right. I’m a terrible mother and I’m never around, but I just went well, I’m here now.

And, and it didn’t stick to me. and again, he was just stating a fact, I’m seeing you here in a while. He was probably happy to see me. He wasn’t judging me. but it

[00:23:17] Missy: And if he is who cares, that’s the other thing I’m trying to learn. Like, if they are judging, like who cares?

[00:23:23] Katherine: And I think I’m a good mother. And , you know, sitting on the sideline of every single soccer game.

Doesn’t make me a good mother. I’m a good mother and a lot of other ways. And so it’s just so beautiful to not stick to you.

[00:23:35] Missy: Yeah. old, like

[00:23:37] Katherine: You can do

[00:23:38] Missy: bounces off me then sticks to you. That where’s that thing we, we used to say is kids rubber glue, but I kind of want to, yeah. I kind of want to embrace the, like, it doesn’t have to stick to me. I’m coated in Teflon and.

[00:23:51] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. It’s beautiful to think that you’re the problem like that is so freeing to me.

[00:23:56] Missy: It is so freeing.

[00:23:58] Katherine: great. Let me change me.

[00:24:00] Missy: Yeah. And allows us to love others in a better way. I think too,

[00:24:04] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:24:05] Susanne: Yeah. And have better assumptions about other people’s intentions or not care about their intentions because their intentions aren’t your problem really?

[00:24:14] Katherine: Right.

[00:24:14] Missy: go on with my day and use my brain power and my emotional strengths in other ways.

[00:24:19] Susanne: Yes. Uh, I now focus, we need, we need those horse blinders. So,

[00:24:24] Missy: Yes.

[00:24:25] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:24:26] Susanne: uh, but so we love the work that you are doing through the mom complex, and I think it’s so important, the voice and understanding that you are bringing to these big corporations to understand and, and care about, , what, what moms think so would really love for people who aren’t as familiar with what the mom complex is.

If you can give an overview and then we’d love to hear some of your favorite aha moments that you’ve had while opening the eyes, whether from the moms kind of like you see from interviewing moms or from corporations who were like, Ooh, I didn’t understand that.

[00:25:03] Katherine: Yeah. So we are a consulting company and we help really large companies come up with better products and services for mothers. And we do that through research. So if we’re working with Walmart, we’re studying the way women shop and buy groceries and what they want, what they don’t want. If we’re working with, , product manufacturer, how moms, you know put on make up, How they wear it, how they think about it, what they want to buy them.

And so it’s a lot of research. It’s a lot of fun and it’s kind of easy in the sense that we just go and speak the truth to these companies about how hard it is to be a mother. And most of these people, our clients are used to seeing kind of airy fairy, fluffy research about moms. It’s like moms want the best for their children.

They want to eat healthy meals and there’s just no teeth in it. You know, where we come in and we’re like, moms are exhausted. They’re overwhelmed. They’re, you know, ordering takeout three nights a week. And we just tell it like it is. And I think it’s so eye opening to these companies who have had such rose colored glasses on when it comes to them.

And they think we’re all June Cleaver and, you know, we love nothing more than baking and cleaning and it’s, um, you know, it often feels like the 1950.

[00:26:20] Susanne: Yes.

[00:26:21] Katherine: so, um, it’s, it’s easy and it’s rewarding in that sense. And we had an executive one time that we were doing revealing a lot of research about mothers and he got rather emotional, during the presentation left the room and he came back at the end and of course I was nervous.

I was like, oh, we’re going to get fired. Why would he leave in the middle of the presentation? he came back in and he said, Katherine, I had no idea hard it is to be a mother. And if I had known, I would have been a better son

[00:26:55] Susanne: Oh,

[00:26:57] Katherine: father and, know, and I thought, wow, like it was so eye opening that in his own life, he had not realized it, you know, with his own mother, with his wife.

And he said, going to go home and buy my wife a massage, like right away. Um, I’ve had a lot of aha moments like that. empathy building. And we can see men in particular gain a lot of empathy because, you know, as women, we keep this stuff to ourselves and we act like everything’s great. And we act like everything’s perfect.

And we don’t often reveal our struggles. And so, , it’s so eye-opening wonderful. And then just a quick product or service example. So many years ago, we worked with Walmart in the UK and we were studying the way women shop and mothers shop and what we realized, which is so obvious, but had never occurred to us before is the pain point of a mother putting an infant car seat on the top of a shopping cart and trying to navigate.

So you completely block your line of sight. You can’t see anything in front of you, you know, it’s above your head practically. And so, , we help them come up with the idea that for parents, with young children, that there was a different style shopping cart that was lower and wider so that you could put the infant car seat on top of it and have a more enjoyable shopping experience.

But, you just don’t see a lot of that, , empathetic outreach, , to say, we understand that shopping with a young child is challenging and we want to make this easier for you, but it was all through researching mothers and them opening up and being honest with us about how painful, it is.

So that was a fun project.

[00:28:43] Susanne: And I’m sure very appreciated by all those shoppers is a,

[00:28:47] Missy: I wish I had had that when I was blindly going through the stores. I hated shopping with my littles, hated it for a number of reasons. Um, but I feel like that’s a,

[00:28:56] Susanne: yeah,

[00:28:57] Missy: yeah, that’s a thing that could have been at least a little more enjoyable.

[00:29:01] Susanne: Yeah. So what does that research process look like with the moms? I know there was the video that Missy was referring to with, you know, all sitting in the room, but like, what does that really look like when a company comes to you has this question or has a product. So do you have a set group of moms that you go to or is it based on particular needs?

Is it geographical? Like what does that look like for y’all

[00:29:25] Katherine: The moms are definitely based on a particular need because a client might want to study third trimester, pregnant millennial women, because they’re a hospital chain, or it might be, , mothers who are caring for their own mothers, you know, their aging seniors. And so we have to keep that pretty flexible.

And then there’s two main research methodologies. It’s all qualitative research that we do. And, the two main tools are one we don’t believe in focus, groups of getting, you know, eight strange moms who don’t know each other. And you put them in this like lab rat, like facility and they all just lie. All the moms show up and they’re like, oh, my kids eat broccoli three meals a day.

My husband’s really helpful. You know, everybody just lies and you get the same research that I was mentioning before that we don’t want to deliver so we throw opinion parties instead, and that’s where it’s six to eight mothers, but they all already know each other. And so the guard comes down.

There’s no posturing involved and, um, and we’ll do a whole bunch of them. It’s not like we just interviewed six women, but, , they all, they call each other on things. You know, somebody is like, oh, we’re really healthy. And then, you know, another mom was like, what are you talking about? You get takeout every other day.

, and so it’s just, the truth comes out a lot faster and it’s more comfortable for the women. So that’s one tool we use a lot. And the other is we have, , a research app that we’ll ask, like around 40 women all across the country, moms to download on their phone for seven days. And we are just hitting them with activities and exercises and videos.

So let’s say we were doing something for like a cosmetic company. It would be, you know, take pictures, you know, under your vanity of all your makeup, your like makeup, graveyard, you know,

[00:31:09] Missy: Yeah.

[00:31:11] Katherine: you don’t want to throw away and you overspend. And then, you know, submit selfie videos of how you feel putting on makeup or what you wish you knew.

And, , this similar to the opinion parties, the methodology that we use is designed to prevent posturing. So they’re not in a group environment and they’re going to be really raw and really, you know, Frank about things. And we’re also, it’s not a survey where we’re just asking them to recall in this very clinical, you know, we want to see the videos.

We want to see the tears. We want to see the frustration. And, , so those are the two tools that we use the most frequent.

[00:31:50] Missy: I That’s I want to have opinion parties.

[00:31:53] Susanne: know.

[00:31:54] Katherine: And they’re fine too. And the other thing I’ll say about opinion parties that are different than focus groups, which we really fought against was, you know, in a traditional focus group facility, , the clients are watching behind like a one-way mirror. And it’s really bizarre to me that this let You’re voyeurs, and like you’re back there.

And you’re like eating M and M’s and you’re watching these women

[00:32:19] Susanne: been one of those people before and it is bizarre on the other side.

[00:32:24] Missy: Yeah.

[00:32:25] Katherine: not natural. It’s not normal to me. When I started doing them in the beginning of my career, I was like, nobody’s saying, this is weird. And so a lot of times with our clients, you know, if it’s Johnson and Johnson or somebody, we will have opinion parties. And at times invite the clients into the room, like be together and let’s tell these women that you’re trying to help them.

And what should you hear? And you can ask questions too. Instead of passing everything through the moderator, it was such an unnatural environment for people that are trying to help these women to not be in contact with them was so strange to me,

[00:33:03] Missy: And it’s really hard. Dodge the reality of what you hear. If you’re in the room with somebody,

[00:33:09] Katherine: right?

Yep.

[00:33:10] Missy: it, everybody is having a more honest experience. I love it.

[00:33:14] Katherine: Yes.

[00:33:15] Missy: it. My next family gathering is going to be an opinion party.

[00:33:19] Susanne: Yeah. We’re going to pretend we’re doing research.

[00:33:23] Katherine: you can. So it’s always something to learn always.

[00:33:25] Susanne: Oh, my gosh. Now if listeners are like, Ooh, I’d like to be involved in that or whatever, is it someplace where people can sign up to be involved in an upcoming party? Like how do you, how do you filter those people?

[00:33:37] Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. You could go to our website, mom, complex.com and send us an email. And we have a database that we call our Maverick moms. , and that’s where we pull from for opinion parties or, um, you know, sometimes we do private Facebook groups, , around that. So you can reach out to us, , even on social media, at the mom complex on Facebook and Instagram, and we can sign you up.

[00:34:02] Susanne: Very cool. And now, since a lot of our listeners are stay at home moms, um, so. I think all moms kind of face probably 80% of the same battles, maybe even 90% of the same battles, but there are some unique elements to them. Just really curious if you’re seeing any trends through the research that you’ve done in particular that stay at home moms are facing, especially maybe around maybe some moms that weren’t intending to be stay at home moms, but due to COVID now are, and just really curious, , what you’re seeing in the mindset of women out there facing these challenges at home.

[00:34:37] Katherine: Yeah, I think unfortunately in our country, Stay at home. Moms are under valued and under appreciated and under respected. And I think that when we interview, stay at home moms, they often think they have the greatest guilt because, or self doubt, because they’re not, you know, financially earning for their family and everybody at the cocktail parties.

The first question in the United States of America is what do you do for a living? My husband. It’s from Switzerland. And when we go to Switzerland, no one ever asks what I do ever. It’s never a topic of conversation I’m always

like, I

[00:35:14] Missy: do they ask it?

[00:35:16] Katherine: they’re like, what do you do for fun? Have you been hiking lately?

Like, it’s all like outdoorsy. It’s like who you are as a human instead of , your occupation is, is maybe 20% of your identity there. Where I feel like in the United States, it’s, it’s much higher, but a stay at home. Mom will often think that they have the greatest, you know, doubt and guilt, but it’s, it’s equal on the working moms side because they’re like, well, I’m never home.

And I can’t, I don’t know how to have boundaries and say no to my boss. So it runs deep. But I think that, kind of like Missy, what we were talking about that filter, I think for a lot of stay at home moms, what I see in my research is they’re adding an extra layer of filter of judgment. Sometimes it’s there, but a lot of times is not, you know, if someone says, what do you do for a living?

It’s kind of just a default. We don’t know what else to say in

this country to

[00:36:08] Missy: Yeah.

[00:36:09] Katherine: someone where I think that is received as a slight, it is received as, oh, now I have to work myself back up and your esteem, you know? And, , so , I do think it takes an extra dose of pride, , for stay-at-home mothers to really own it and say, I’m proud of this.

This is what I love doing. And you’re seeing more and more of it. Like I see women on their LinkedIn profiles now, or just owning it, , and putting it out there. And I hope we can, , get further along, and our society. But again, that’s external and it’s very hard to change that. And if we can be proud of what we are choosing to do with our time and what’s best for your family, then.

That rudder gets deeper and you care less about what other people, , think about your choices.

[00:37:00] Susanne: I love that. I was just looking behind me to see if I had Lisen Stromberg’s, uh, work, pause, thrive book. cause she, when we interviewed her, brought up a similar idea of just owning it and just this idea. And I said, I said, I feel like I really did not a disservice to my daughter, but I, I spent so much time, second guessing, like, should I be home?

Should I not? Whereas if I had just. Just soak in it, claim it, own it and enjoy it and just be like, yeah, this is amazing that I have the gift of this time. And just, it’s kind of this idea of like, okay, when you schedule a nap, you can really enjoy that nap. You don’t have to be guilty about taking the rest or whatever, because that was what that time was intended for.

that staying at home with your kids is anywhere even close to it now, but the idea that this is, and I think maybe that’s where it might be harder for some of the moms who, or dads who are home due to COVID and circumstances that were not their choice

[00:37:59] Katherine: Pretty sure.

[00:38:00] Susanne: you didn’t get to have that ownership of the decision or the ownership of where your life is right now.

So that might be a little more complicated, but, um, like in my case, I did have the luxury of making that choice and it was very conscious decision and I really wished that I had just lived in it and just really just been

[00:38:19] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:38:20] Susanne: this is amazing. Yay me.

[00:38:22] Katherine: The other thing I’ll say about, you know, we talked about the calendar and the purple, I think it’s almost more important for stay-at-home moms because you’re with your children all day. And it’s a pretty thankless job, you know, from your spouse, from your partner, from your children. And so you don’t get a lot of attagirls, you don’t get a lot of pats on the back that maybe those, , in a professional environment get.

And so you need that escape. You need that time to do yoga. You need that time to, to go for a walk. , and so it’s, I think it’s even more critical to be able, because if you are going into an office or you’re going to meetings, like you do get a break, not that working is always easy, but you don’t have a child crawling on you, you know, all day, every day.

So I think those moments of silence, those breaks, those reprieves are, really important for the mental health of stay at home moms.

[00:39:18] Susanne: Yeah.

[00:39:19] Missy: Yeah. And taking those with that, like we’ve talked about, there’s no guilt attached to that. , none of this, you’re not filtering. I would filter that when I was a stay at home mom with little kids, I would think, well, I’m going to take this time for myself, but now what do people think of me? So take that out of there and just be like, I’m taking this time for myself.

It’s important.

[00:39:40] Susanne: Yes.

[00:39:41] Katherine: lose your mind less frequently. I mean, you can think of advantages. I mean, when you take time for yourself, even if it’s 30 minutes to walk around the block, more, level-headed, going to yell at your children less frequently. And so again, self care has this halo of being so selfish, I guarantee you, I am a better mother, sister, wife, daughter, friend, human being, because I take time for myself.

And, , before this, I just yelled at my children. All the time. And I say, and Slay Like a mother, you know, their punishment, never, fit the crime. I mean, I was like

[00:40:18] Missy: No

[00:40:19] Katherine: yelling and they barely did anything wrong, but I was just so on edge and ego and my identity was so caught up and other people’s, , approval and compliance and, , obedience and that’s an exhausting way to be.

[00:40:39] Missy: It is.

It is. I think I can see it in my children even in my spouse, I see. What they need for that time and space. I know that they are better people. If they have time to exercise, if they eat right. If they get proper sleep, see that. And I try to make that happen for them. And I’m learning and I’m really, really feel like I’m just learning that.

Not only I have to do that for myself, I have to do it with the same care. I do that for them. And it’s something I’ve talked about this recently on the podcast that I’ve always been pretty good at recognizing that I need rest or exercise or water or whatever it is, but I’ve never been good at being graceful about it.

I feel a lot of guilt and a lot of self, um, like, like I’m, self-conscious about it, I guess.

[00:41:28] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:41:29] Missy: And so I’m learning not to me cause I’m certainly, I don’t feel that way when I offer that to the people I love.

[00:41:33] Susanne: Yes,

[00:41:34] Katherine: One thing that might help you, Missy, in addition to, you know, put it on the calendar, which then reminds you that that’s a priority. But I always say, ask for permission in bulk, you know, go to your children or go to your spouse and say, Hey, , I’m feeling a little overwhelmed these days. And , if it’s okay with you every other Thursday night, I’m going to go for two hours to, a cafe.

And I’m just going to read my book and are we good with that? Are we cool? Is that okay if I step away from, , our commitments and we can work around it, but are we good with that? And everybody goes, of course, mom, you know? And so again, it’s like, you only have to get the courage to do that one time.

And you’ve asked permission for like the next eight weeks, because what happened. We get the courage once and we’re like, oh, I’m going to go to a cafe and I’m going to read a self help book. We do it once and we never do it again because then life gets busy and then we’re like, oh, is it okay if I leave for tea?

Is it okay? Oh, it’s not okay. Okay. Okay. I’ll go. I’ll stay home. , and so doing things and asking for permission in bulk can be a really powerful, um, permission slip.

[00:42:38] Missy: Yeah.

[00:42:38] Susanne: like that. I know.

[00:42:40] Missy: tip that everyone can put into practice right now.

[00:42:43] Susanne: Yeah. I know. And you know, and like we said, the husbands do it and. my husband, he plays video games with his friends and I, this is not a diss. My husband, I love that he does this every Sunday and it’s, you know, a certain block, a couple of hours. It’s friends that he’s known since high school and, people in other countries.

And it’s a really special thing that they all get together and do. And I just love it. And it’s, I mean, if we’re doing yard work, yard work ends at that time so that he can go and go in and do that. And it’s such a respected block of time. The kids know it. I know it. And we kind of all do our own things and we don’t need them during that time.

It’s awesome. , , and you know what, I, I think it’s really special that he does that because I do think that there are a lot of men don’t necessarily do that too. They may take the time, but it’s not like this really scheduled

[00:43:30] Missy: um,

[00:43:31] Susanne: Hey, let’s kind of family plan this time together so that we know what’s going to happen and that you’re not expecting me to do something this

[00:43:38] Katherine: It’s transparent.

It’s transparent.

And you’re not having to be like, oh, oh, is it okay? You know, it’s, it’s in bulk and it’s, and, and everybody knows there’s no sneak attack of like, I think women, like, we keep all this bottled up and then we’re like,

[00:43:54] Susanne: Yes,

[00:43:55] Katherine: it’s like, I’ve got to get away for a month.

[00:43:59] Missy: I did that last week. I was fine. Fine, fine. And then Thursday evening, all of a sudden, like something snapped and I was like, I am going to my room and I will see you all tomorrow, but it wasn’t a really graceful way to handle it. I mean, I needed it. I took it, but it came out of nowhere. It sort of came out of nowhere to me.

And when I was honest with myself, I think about what led up to that, but came out of nowhere for that.

[00:44:24] Susanne: yes.

[00:44:25] Missy: I was, everybody came home from school and work and we were all like, Hey, it’s great. And then all of a sudden I was like, I can’t do this today. Can’t do it.

[00:44:31] Katherine: yeah, yeah,

[00:44:33] Missy: But if I were

[00:44:34] Katherine: instead of proactive. Like, what

[00:44:36] Missy: completely reactive,

[00:44:37] Katherine: really proactive about having.

[00:44:40] Susanne: Uh, this is all such good advice and I really cannot recommend slay like a mother enough such great information. And, , for people who want to learn more from you, , do you have any upcoming seminars or where’s the best place for people to find you?

[00:44:59] Katherine: Um, the best place to find us is on Instagram. You can follow slay like a mother or, , my handle, which is K winch, w I N T S C H. , and we release upcoming, , events there on Instagram as they come about. And, um, you can also go to a slaylikeamother.com and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter, where I release blog posts and tips and tricks, , to help you slay what’s standing in your way.

[00:45:26] Susanne: Wonderful. Oh, I’m so excited for people to learn more and Yeah, we’re going to, we’re going to do some of our favorite takeaways from the book and we’ll put them up on social media within our, uh, Facebook group and also some clips from this podcast because such great. I mean, this is

[00:45:44] Missy: So much good

[00:45:45] Susanne: I mean, I, I hate to be like it’s life changing, but it is it’s life changing.

Um, if you can put some of these processes in place and, and these are not you don’t have to put money into it, it doesn’t take more than just kind of this change of mindset or this change of habits of actually doing these things. So, so excited. These are things you can put in place to day to day.

You can do this. so, okay. Now, as we’re learning about the book, now we’re going to be, look, listen and learning some of the stuff that we are doing.

[00:46:14] Missy: at the clock and we had to

[00:46:15] Susanne: I know we’ll speed. Look, listen, and learn. I’ll go fast. But, uh, for anybody who, this is your first episode listening. Thank you for joining. We’re so happy to have you here and they’ll look, listen and learn.

segment is an opportunity for our, each of us to talk about some of the favorite things that we’ve been either watching or reading or listening to, or learning about this week. So I will go ahead and jump in. So we don’t put you on Katherine. That’s sort of the guest under the best first.

Um, so the thing I’ve been listening to is called story time with Seth Rogen. And there was an episode called glorious bastards, um, where the story of how this comedian tell me if I’m pronouncing this right. Missy queen Quinta, Brunson,

[00:46:58] Missy: I think so.

[00:46:58] Susanne: Quinta, Brunson.

[00:46:59] Missy: heard it said out loud, but I have seen her in lever.

[00:47:03] Susanne: And she’s talking about how she had this total sliding doors life pivot moment, , due to bumping into Paul Rudd. At the movie Inglorious bastards, um, where she was with a boyfriend where she kind of was making a pivotal decision, like the, should this be my boyfriend? Should it not this path in life. , and, , she didn’t hook up with Paul Rudd. Or anything, but because, because of some conversations that were had, she made some changes in her life.

 But then it goes on to interview Paul Rudd and talk about the people who’ve made changes in his life. And it ends up to have this hilarious connection to Dan Wilson. Who’s the guy who sings that song closing time, which I can’t get out of my head. Now, do you know that the closing time you can’t,

you don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here.

Um, And then, yeah. And so just kind of follows this rabbit hole of people who have influenced the person who influenced you and so on and so on. Um, so it’s really fun and anything with Paul Rudd. I mean, really,

[00:48:04] Missy: Yeah.

[00:48:04] Susanne: talked about earlier how I am learning, I’m learning how to use Evernote and Trello.

So I mentioned Cara Harvey, the purpose-driven mom. , I went back and watched some of the videos, , since we weren’t able to go into the Trello tutorial when we were interviewing her. And I mean, she’s got tons of, it’s like an hour long, so it’s helpful. There’s all kinds of tutorials. , so I think I can use Evernote for lining up the notes from my book and research for my book.

going to use Trello. I think just for that, every category of to-do lists that I have. Um, I’m doing NaNoWriMo. Although the no is standing for nonfiction, not novel. So national nonfiction writing month, uh, which is all November. And in addition to that, I’ve been, my looking has been looking at new curtains for my office.

I just got these. They are like the color of the sun practically there, but they were cheap and they’re fine. So I’m going to put them up on my office, doorways, since my office has two doorways that don’t have doors in them, to be a signal to the world. And also just to kind of, we were talking about this horse blinders.

I feel like I have this peripheral vision of anybody who comes through the kitchen that I can see and whatever. So to put those up. Um,

[00:49:16] Missy: I might steal it because I have the same kind of room with the two open doorways. And I don’t really want the expense of putting in doors. We’ve talked about it, but I don’t really want to spend the money there right now.

[00:49:28] Susanne: Yeah, this is like all in with the curtain rod and the curtains is going to be under a hundred bucks and I’m claiming my space. Yeah. Like I said, they’re not gorgeous, but I mean, I’m, I’m more of just like, this is proof of concept at this point. Maybe if this, if this works, then I’ll be like, okay, maybe I’ll, you know, hit pottery barn or something instead of Amazon.

[00:49:48] Missy: plus that would soften the room sound wise. Like if we decide we want to

[00:49:52] Susanne: we just,

[00:49:52] Missy: our offices.

[00:49:54] Susanne: So yes,

[00:49:55] Missy: you’ve got me thinking

[00:49:56] Susanne: Look, listen, learn. And what about you, Katherine?

[00:50:00] Katherine: I’ll say for looking, , I’m been looking at sex differently. I just finished, um, binging on Netflix, Gwyneth Paltrow’s series called sex love and goop, and it’s really profound, about how we have been, um, you know, just indoctrinated into the way that sex is supposed to be in different roles.

And, , it follows like six different couples through various different like sex therapy. It’s just fascinating. And, you know, I hate that I’m 44 and I’m just learning about, um, I don’t know, just a lot of. And it’s very vulnerable and kind of cringe-worthy at times. And I just love it. I just love people being vulnerable.

So that’s what I’ve been looking at. Um, learning. I am still always learning about myself and my own journey. And I’m reading a book right now called welcome home by Najwa Zebian. She’s a woman from Lebanon and it’s the most amazing metaphor. It’s about how you build a home for your soul inside of yourself instead of inside of other people.

And the metaphor is so profound to me that when you put your soul in other people’s homes and other people’s hands, that you can feel spiritually homeless,

[00:51:24] Susanne: Oh,

[00:51:24] Katherine: how I felt for 20 years of my life. And so I’m still learning about, you know, building this home for my spirit and myself. And so that’s been. Really mindblowing. And then listening. I have been listening to a book called Unbound by Tarana and she is a black woman who was the original founder of the me too

[00:51:46] Missy: Yep.

[00:51:46] Susanne: yes.

[00:51:47] Katherine: And it has been really

[00:51:49] Missy: Amazing.

[00:51:50] Katherine: about the lived experience of people who have experienced sexual violence and particularly in the black community.

And, , I have really welcomed learning about experiences that are different than mine. And I’m, I’m always trying to listen and learn about, you know, other lived experiences. So that’s a phenomenal book too.

[00:52:13] Susanne: you might enjoy, she was just on the, , we can do hard things. Podcasts, the Glennon Doyle’s podcast.

[00:52:20] Missy: see that? Yes.

[00:52:21] Katherine: I saw a preview for it. I need to make a note. I need to go

[00:52:23] Susanne: Yeah. Really, really good.

[00:52:25] Missy: Yeah, she’s amazing.

[00:52:27] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:52:27] Susanne: What about you, Missy?

[00:52:29] Missy: Okay. I don’t want to follow this. I’m

[00:52:30] Susanne: I know.

[00:52:31] Missy: go today because I have some really deep things to share with you all

[00:52:34] Susanne: Yeah, where’s it better than curtains because

[00:52:40] Missy: So first I meant to bring the product in here and I did not, but Susanne and I were talking about it before the show. , I got a new hair product called do over D O O over and it’s by Kevin Murphy. I love Kevin Murphy products and they all smell good. And they’re all like the packaging is pretty. They just, they hit all.

[00:52:59] Susanne: they do.

[00:53:00] Missy: but I got this product. Um, I got my hair trimmed yesterday, and so I have like freshly trimmed hair, which always acts a little differently than it’s been washed. And the ends right now, like all used to be middles. And so they don’t know what to do with themselves because now they’re in ends.

And so I woke up this morning, I was Susanne I was getting a really strong leather Tuscadero vibe out of my hair. And I don’t know if it’s really doing it But then we started talking about, just stay with me. You’re there’s a point. So when I was a child, I was obsessed with happy days.

Obsessed still kind of love it. but leather Tuscadero was one of my favorites and I just thought she was the coolest,

[00:53:39] Susanne: to remember the hand move,

[00:53:41] Missy: she does this. This

[00:53:43] Susanne: snap.

[00:53:43] Missy: is an app. You have to watch the YouTube, if you want to see us doing it. Um, I thought she was so cool and I wanted to be leather. And, um, my other favorite character, not on happy days at that time was.

From Alice who worked in Mel’s diner. And so I’ve been trying to figure out just, just this morning and talking to Susanne, like, what is it about those two women who appealed to me so much? And I think a lot of it is they both just said what they needed to say, and they were very unapologetic about who they were.

And I think that appealed to me as a very small child, and I think it’s still appeals to me now. , so I think my roundabout learn is, Hey, there’s this good hair product that kind of is a dry shampoo slash hairspray that works with day two bedhead. But the other thing I’m learning is that kind of cool to go back and think about what has impacted you in your life, even if it’s something as fluffy as a TV character, and why, why that spoke to you.

So that’s my kind of silly learn.

[00:54:47] Susanne: That is deep.

[00:54:49] Missy: it got kind of deep there from do over hair spray to.

[00:54:53] Susanne: you brought it full circle?

[00:54:55] Katherine: Meaning of your identity.

[00:54:57] Missy: I mean, I, haven’t got to think about it. I really like, I think I’m going to write about it and try to figure out there’s gotta be more there. And I just haven’t worked my way around it yet. Um, but my look, and then I’ll wrap it up. I have a listen I’ll share next time, but my look, I watched The Way Down documentary about Gwen Shamblin.

Lara did have either of you

[00:55:18] Susanne: I haven’t. I haven’t

[00:55:20] Missy: So it’s, I mean, it’s very sad story. Really. She died this past year in a plane crash. , but it’s also just crazy. She’s one of the founders of a cult church in Tennessee called the remnant or the remnant fellowship, I think. And she founded this weight loss program called the way down, like E I G H weigh down.

Um, the documentary is the way down. W a Y I’m not why. But that’s the name of the documentary, but the weight loss program was the way down as in weight. And, um, she’s a very interesting character and I have thought about it a lot. I also watched some of what Susanne recommended that a midnight mass show, which is also has sort of a cult-y vibe.

That’s not,

[00:56:06] Susanne: Let’s put recommended in quotes.

[00:56:10] Missy: That is definitely do not watch while eating what’s so gross. So I just have been thinking a lot about cults. I’m fascinated by that. And again, I’d like to know why, but religion and how it gets all twisted up and all these crazy ideas. And this remnant fellowship is still, I mean, it’s still going, her children are running it and it’s sort of bananas.

[00:56:34] Susanne: Oh,

[00:56:34] Missy: recommend giving that a watch. It’s not very long and you can spend the whole time going.

[00:56:39] Susanne: I picture that being my face through a

[00:56:42] Missy: Yeah. I mean, I’m at my face. The whole time was like,

[00:56:47] Susanne: Oh, my goodness. That was pretty solid. We had like a nice variety pack there and the

[00:56:51] Missy: Yeah, you can get whatever you need. Yeah.

[00:56:53] Susanne: I, I know I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, this was so much fun and

[00:57:00] Missy: wonderful to meet

[00:57:01] Susanne: hopefully there’s some people watching on YouTube. Most of our people are listeners and not the Watchers, but, uh, if you can see the book here, slay like a mother and yeah, it’s, it’s just so good.

It’s so good. I guess I could go for a whole week just talking about all the different lessons. Cause I mean, it just gets to the heart of. Before you can do anything else. You need to shut down that dragon voice and the main girl and your head and figure out who you are. So you can just make all the rest of the steps intentionally.

So, yeah, I mean, step one here,

[00:57:32] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:57:33] Susanne: if you’re getting your stuff together, start here. Oh, so, well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to come talk with us. This has been so much fun.

[00:57:42] Katherine: Awesome. Well, thank you for having me. It was so fun.

[00:57:45] Susanne: All

[00:57:45] Missy: It was fun. We appreciate it. Have a great rest of your day.

[00:57:48] Susanne: All right. Bye bye.

[00:57:50] Missy: Bye.